‘Why Do You Want The Headache of Two Dalai Lamas’

On July 2, after years of speculation over the future of his institution, the Dalai Lama declared that there would be a reincarnation after his passing. By declaring that the next Dalai Lama would be born in the free world, and that a trust [the Gaden Phodrang Trust] which he established would have sole authority in identifying the next reincarnation, he also laid down the ground rules that would effectively shut out Beijing from trying to interfere in the process. In the future, however, it is likely that the world will be faced with two Dalai Lamas, one picked by the Chinese, and another found by the Dalai Lama’s trust from outside China.

Penpa Tsering, the Sikyong or the political head of the Central Tibetan Administration, is in the midst of these debates. Born in the refugee settlement in Bylakuppe, Karnataka, Tsering is an old hand in Tibetan exile politics. He served for two terms as the speaker of the Central Tibetan Administration’s parliament, before being elected as Sikyong in 2021. In this interview, he talks about the issue of the Dalai Lama’s reincarnation; how foreign governments, including India, could help; the challenges faced by the community as more Tibetans move to the West; and why the Karmapa Lama, a prominent religious figure, who many felt could play a big role in the future, has refused to return to India?

You’ve just come back from a trip to the UK and Germany, where one of the points you raised is for support on the issue of the Dalai Lama’s reincarnation. What kind of reaction did you get to this point?

I don’t want to make any noise before the egg hatches. So let’s wait. That’s why, when people ask me, did you have successful meetings? I say we had good meetings. I would call it a success only when I get it in writing. We are expecting more governments to issue policy statements on religious freedom in Tibet and also about His Holiness’ reincarnation, just like the United States amended the US Tibet policy of 2002 to Tibet Support Policy Act of 2020, wherein they have included the element of the His Holiness’ reincarnation. If more governments from the free democratic world can adopt this, that will be good.

If we get few big countries to announce [such an adoption] in Europe, then we reach out to other countries in Europe, and get as many statements as possible. Some countries [in Europe] have already issued it.

What are the sentiments among Tibetans about the issue of the Dalai Lama’s reincarnation?

His Holiness keeps reassuring us that he will live for another 2 decades and more. So within the Tibetan community, they feel they have time because His Holiness is going to be around. In the event of His Holiness not being there with us, of course it will be a huge setback for the Tibetan movement as a whole. But His Holiness knows this reality. When we came first came into exile, we never thought that we will have to live in exile for 65-66 years. The 13th Dalai Lama also went into exile in 1910, and returned two years later. So at that time [in 1959, when the 14th Dalai Lama came to India], people expected to return to Tibet very soon.

But His Holiness has been a visionary and a true democrat. His Holiness introduced democracy, not even one year after coming into exile under very difficult circumstances and today, we are the only exile community with a fully functional democratic polity. So His Holiness has been preparing us for the last six decades, for the Tibetans to take up responsibility. That’s also the reason my predecessor [Lobsang Sangay] and even an ordinary person like me, can become the elected political leader today.

Since the transition, when His Holiness devolved his political powers [in 2011], we have been handling the administration and political aspect. Of course, we seek His Holiness’ guidance and advice from time to time, update him on what’s happening. But majorly, we are running the government. This itself is an example of how, or what we can do in future.

Is there a need for a 15th Dalai Lama?

His Holiness has been very consistent in his statement, right from 1969, is that whether there should be a 15th Dalai Lama or not, will be decided by Tibetan people. Almost every section of the community has written to His Holiness, asking him to continue with the Gaden Phodrang institution [originally, the name of the Tibetan government as headed by the Dalai Lamas, now also the name of a trust established by the current Dalai Lama’s office in exile], and asking for his reincarnation. Those messages have gone to His Holiness’ office. And we have compiled all of that, and we will be collecting and compiling more of these from different countries during this year, which [we are celebrating] as the Year of Compassion. This will become evidence in the future, as to what the Tibetans and the free world wants, and what China wants. Then you can compare these two situations, and things will evolve [from there]. The world needs evidence of who wants what.

In reincarnations historically, there have always been long interim periods before the next Dalai Lama is identified and comes of age. This could prove to be a tricky and unstable phase. How will that be handled?

Whenever such time or eventuality happens, if the Tibetan exile leadership that will follow us, if they continue to serve the community in a truthful and justified manner, and if all Tibetans remain united, then I think we should be able to get through the difficulties during such an interregnum period also.

Are the back channel conversations that are going on with the Chinese, and how have they been looking at the issue of reincarnation?

The back-channels are going on with the Chinese. Whether they admit it or not, we have to keep some kind of relationship to send messages back and forth. And, even at this point of time, they have been sending messages that we should not take up any position that will go against the Chinese government. But if we have to listen to them, then they also have to listen to us. If they listen to us, about [our points] about policies inside Tibet, then there will be space for us also to consider [what they are saying]. Otherwise, it doesn’t make any sense.

Are the Chinese anxious about the issue of reincarnation?

They have been anxious for many years. That’s why, I keep saying, they are not concerned about the living 14th, but more concerned about the yet-to-come 15. Even in 2015, when Nancy Pelosi, the then speaker of the US House of Representatives visited China, all the talks were on His Holiness’ reincarnation. Any visitor who’s connected with Tibet and goes to China, they always talk about these things. They’re very worried. They are on very thin ice. A government that does not believe in any religion wants to be responsible for the recognition of spiritual leaders. That’s out of the question.

How will the Chinese react to the Dalai Lama’s decision to reincarnate?

We know for a fact that if the Chinese government doesn’t change its policy, then it will look for a Dalai Lama. We will also look for one. Both sides know about this, and there’s no surprise if that happens. So what I tell the Chinese government is, do you want a lifelong headache of two Dalai Lamas. And Xi Jinping, won’t be there to resolve it. So it’s for the Chinese government to decide what is best for them.

Should China ideally try to resolve the issue during the lifetime of the current Dalai Lama?

Yes. That is why, if the Middle Way [the Dalai Lama’s proposal for greater Tibetan autonomy within the framework of the China, rather than outright independence] is addressed, which is His Holiness’ official position on resolving the Sino-Tibet conflict. Even though Tibet historically was an independent country, we are now not asking for separation or independence. We are willing to live within the framework of the constitution of China, but then again, the Chinese government keeps calling His Holiness a separatist. His Holiness keeps chanting like a mantra, ‘Middle Way, Middle Way’. Chines government keeps calling His Holiness, ‘separatist, separatist.’ So who really wants Tibet to be separated from China? Is it the Chinese Government or His Holiness, that they have to make it clear.

The 15th Dalai Lama could very well be found in India. What are your expectations from the Indian government when it comes to the issue of the Dalai Lama’s reincarnation?

I don’t know. That’s for Indian government to decide. But then, I also tell the Indian government, if the next Dalai Lama is born in India to an Indian family, then the next Dalai Lama also becomes an Indian citizen. I’m sure the Indian government has already started thinking about this and how to tackle these situations.

While the US has been quite explicit in its support for the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan people’s rights to decide on the matter of the Dalai Lama’s reincarnation, many worry about the transactional nature of the Donald Trump administration. After Trump’s actions against USAID, the Central Tibetan Administration has also suffered a big cut in aid. How reliable is the US support for Tibet?

We remain positive. Secretary of State Marco Rubio, even when he was in the Senate, always championed all legislative work on Tibet, and also Uyghurs, Hong Kong and Taiwan. So coming from a Cuba background, having suffered under communism, his heart and mind is in the right place. All the communications that we have received from Marco Rubio, on New Year’s Eve, or response to my personal letter to him, or the statements he has made on other occasions, it is a continuation of the US government’s policy on Tibet.

On the financial side, of course, we became collateral damage in the whole process of foreign assistance cut globally by the US government. I spent two weeks end of April to the beginning of May, meeting with all congressional leaders in the Foreign Relations and the Foreign Affairs Committee, and also in the Appropriations Committee. We have been working hard to convince the [US] State Department, the embassy here, the Congress, and everybody, and maybe we will have some good news. If not the full amount, at least part of it.

How much did the cut in aid affect the Central Tibetan Administration?

So we budget about $40 million dollars a year. Out of that, $14 million comes from the United States. And from that $14 million, $2 million has already been restored since it is part of PRM [population, refugees and migration], which is a programme directly under the State Department, and not part of USAID. So we are short of $12 million… So if there is restoration, that restoration will be $7 million out of 12. [Penpa Tsering revealed a day after the interview that the US had restored $7 million of the aid cut.]

That’s still a big impact, right?

In terms of percentage, $12 million is about 30 percent of our budget. We are learning to adapt. And also work with other sources to fill that gap. So it will not kill us right now, but it does damage our momentum. The momentum that we have been building over last several years, towards getting all these programmes done, to make ourselves sustainable in the future.

The Karmapa Lama, who acquired Dominican citizenship a few years ago, is not here for the religious conference this time too. We often hear that the Indian government wants him to come back. But he hasn’t come back for whatever reason. What is the situation there?

There are a number of issues. One of the issues was the Mehatpur case [where the police arrested two individuals with Rs 1 crore, who claimed the money was for a land deal involving the Karmapa Lama’s trust], where the Karmapa Lama had also been charge-sheeted. There was a hearing on November 16 last year. And on December 6th, His Holiness the Karmapa’s name was withdrawn from the charge-sheet. So that’s one progress that has been made, which should be an encouragement for the Karmapa rinpoche to come back. But then there are other issues, about his freedom of movement in India, [the ability] to go back to foreign countries, where he will live, how much freedom within India. So there are other concerns also, which needs to be addressed. Maybe it’s because of these reasons that things are not happening right now.

Should these be addressed soon so that the Karmapa Lama can be in Dharamshala, among the Tibetan community here? Would that be the ideal scenario?

The ideal scenario would be for the Karmapa to fulfill his responsibilities as the Karmapa. That he is able to have access to all the Tibetan communities, and his adherents in other countries as well. As a child, he lived under a lot of pressure from the Chinese government. There was no freedom. Now coming to India, he would want some freedom.

Over the years the number of Tibetans arriving from Tibet to India and Nepal is said to have reduced. Is that the case?

In 2008, there were these huge demonstrations inside Tibet, across all parts of Tibet. Since that time, the Chinese control inside Tibet has increased manifold, and now, there is the use of artificial intelligence, and so much surveillance and control. They have removed all the guides from Lhasa. Without these guides, Tibetans cannot climb over the Himalayas by themselves. Then of course, there’s more pressure on the Nepalese government. Some of the refugees have been made to return. Last March, we had a peculiar incident, where for the first time, Nepalese police came to the Tibetan Reception Centre [set up to welcome new arrivals] when three monks had come from Amdo and they took them away. We managed to get them back eventually. So the number of arrivals has gone down drastically. Last year, only 47 Tibetans came.

What impact has this had on institutions like schools set up for Tibetans in exile?

Before 2008, we used to receive any number between 2,000 to 3,000 Tibetans. Many returned, but the children were kept behind in India to study, not knowing whether they will ever meet their families again.

But now there are very few arrivals from Tibet. And that’s also impacting our school systems. Where we used to have more than 1,000 children, now it’s gone down to 500-600.

A lot of Tibetans based in India have been moving to the West. What will this mean for the exile community in India?

Well, just in France, every single year, we have around 500 Tibetans moving, who register with our Office of Tibet. Not to mention other countries.

Well, we will have to adapt. Because of the compact communities [we created in India and Nepal], we managed to preserve our identity in the form of schools, religious institutions, cultural institutions. Now when that [the population] gets scattered, schools get impacted, [you find] only the elderly living [here], [and socially, it becomes] not as vibrant as we want it to be.

Of course, for every situation, there is good side and a bad side. So one good side, now you have more Tibetans in so many different countries, and they are becoming citizens. They learn the [local] language [there], they understand the system [there]. If they understand a little more about China, what’s going on inside Tibet, and they could be the best advocates for Tibet. And that’s what we are building on. The generation that came from Tibet, built us. And we are the generation, born in exile, that is taking responsibility [for the cause] now. Eventually, the younger generation will have to take over.

We have this annual International Youth Forum Conference conducted here [in Dharamshala] for 100 young Tibetans every year. If we do this for 10 years. Then that’s 1,000 young leaders. They’re all between ages 20 to 30, and if they live for another 40 to 50 years, you have people to carry on [and take the movement further]. But then Tibetans will have to study more about themselves, their own history and background, and learn about what’s happening inside Tibet, so that they are in a position to explain to others.

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